Baseball Thingy
This is the spot for the All-Time Baseball Teams Thing that YF and I are working on. Discussion of any relevant issues will, I guess, go here.
posted by Ben @ 6:40 PM
42 comments
That's Right, I'm A Chef!
The blog of Ben Storkamp. Alleged chef, part-time diehard Twins fan, full time television connoisseur. Known authority on Freshy Freshington, Harold Dieterle and Hells Kitchen.
Tuesday, March 22, 2005
That Baseball Thing
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42 Comments:
I guess the first order of business is to figure out what teams to include. The obvious ones are-
American League:
Yankees
Red Sox
White Sox
Tigers
Athletics
Indians
And I guess we will be combining Twins/Senators and Orioles/Browns. For all those great Browns players.
National League:
Dodgers
Giants
Cardinals
Reds
Cubs
Pirates
Phillies
Braves
The job seems to be to figure out wether or not to include the following teams: Blue Jays, Rangers, Angels, Mariners, Royals, Mets, Expos/Nationals, Brewers, Padres, I would say Colorado, Arizona, Florida and needless to say Tampa Bay haven't had the history to include them. But I guess we could include Florida which has had two World Series titles and Colorado which has had some players with great seasons. Open to discussion?
Hmmm....I could see the Royals, Angels, and Mets being included based pretty much on their length of existance. (Keep in mind that I really have no idea what I'm talking about.) It seems like the Rockies could be allowed to play too, mainly for sentimental reasons. But it also seems like we would be just kind of throwing them to the wolves considering the short time they've had to build up an all-star team.
So now, after careful consideration, I'd like to submit my first player suggestion. I think Babe Ruth should be included....I suppose as a Yankee....or maybe a Twin.
More to come.
YF
Ok.
Colorado: As much as I'd like to, it would be kinda pointless. A handful of good players, zero pitching...
Florida: They've managed to win 2 world series BUT 1: None of the players closely associated with those teams were there 2 years later and 2: If the fans didn't care about those teams why should we?
Royals: I'm leaning to yes. They've had some very good teams, playoff teams over the years and its the only way we'll get George Brett in.
Mets: I assume you're cool with them. Maybe we can find room for Marv Thornberry.
Arizona: This would be based pretty much only on their one world series, but all of the players important to that team were veteran free agents brought in just for that one run. Otherwise, not much to go on.
More later.
Royals, yes. Mets, yes. Arizona, thumbs down. Hmmm...what about the Astros? I've always kind of thought of Nolan Ryan as an Astro. I guess he could be an Angel. What about the Angels? Let's see, the Angels would have....well...Nolan Ryan, I guess. I suppose he could be a Met.
It seems like the leagues should be limited to 8 teams each. But if you add the Mets, that's 9 for the national league. With the Royals you have 7 in the AL. The Angels would make an even 8. I'm not sure how to fix the NL though. Maybe you could make it three didvisions of three teams each. If you added the Mariners, Blue Jays or Rangers, everyone would be happy. I see no way to trim the NL down without leaving the Mets out.
How many players to a team? Do you use a pitching rotation and relief pitchers? How many position players and pinch hitters?
and stuff like that
YF
Ok. Proposed:
AL-
Yankees
Red Sox
White Sox
Tigers
Indians
Athletics
Twins/Senators
Orioles/Browns
Royals
Angels
Blue Jays
Mariners
That leaves out the Devil Rays and Rangers/Seantors V.2
NL:
Reds
Cardinals
Cubs
Astros
Brewers
Pirates
Mets
Braves
Phillies
Dodgers
Giants
To make it an even 12 we'd have to decide between, I'd say, the Padres and the Expos/Nats. The Padres have a couple Pennants and Tony Gwynn, whou really should be included. The Expos have a bunch of really good players who all went on to become famous with other teams. I don't know. There are 8 NL teams that HAVE to be included, but we really should have the Mets and that would make 9. The Astros, who warrant inclusion make 10, but it seems like the Brewers ought to be worthy too and that makes 11. I know you'd prefer to go with fewer but I think we can make good teams for these franchises without dilluting the "older" teams.
Oh, and under this proposal I assume we would go with two leagues with two six team divisions. Probably based on an East/West system?
Crap! I wrote a long reply to this yesterday, but it didn't take. I have no idea what I said anymore.
Let's see, OK, 12 teams in each league then. Adding the Padres to the NL. I'm sure we can get the teams together, it will just take a while. But of course, that's fine.
YF
Alright, agreed then, all current teams except: Rockies, Marlins, Devil Rays, Diamondbacks, Senators V 2.0/Rangers and Expos/Nats.
Just at a glance I can think of a few players we might want to consider off of these teams.
Rangers: Ivan Rodriguez- Spent most of his career with Rangers, wins a WS with Marlins his one year there. One of the best catchers of all time, but we could shoehorn him onto the Tigers behind Mickey Cochrane I guess.
Expos: Gary Carter can go to the Mets. Tim Raines, probably to the White Sox. Andre Dawson to the Cubs.
Rockies: Todd Helton is young enough to leave out. If we really want to get Larry Walker in we could stick him on the Cards. But there probably won't be room. No one else really.
Marlins: Everyone they've had of any impact has been a short term free agent that would fit in better somewhere else.
Devil Rays: Uh, no.
Diamondbacks: Luis Gonzalez? Eh, I like him but I won't lose sleep. Everyone else fits better elsewhere.
OK, so now what? Do I just start rattling off names? Do you rattle off names and I pretend I actually know who you're talking about?
I'm starting to go through the baseball book and I believe I can name some names. Some of them are not even Yankees.
Where do we start?
YF
Once I've finished making the league we'll have a few more details to settle. We'll need to decide what era to be playing in. I can alter the settings for things like home runs and batting average etc. Plus things like how often relievers are used. I'll post more on it when Im at home.
The league has been made. The settings are pretty much to default right now. I've made one character, Babe Ruth, just to test the process.
Ok, should we start with the Yankees? Seems like they will be the easiest to do.
Crap! My post got dumped again.
OK, I’m doing this in Word.
How many position players, and pitchers? What about relief pitchers and pinch hitters? Do we use a designated hitter? Am I supposed to try to decide on a best year from a player’s career? As for the era, how about the Lively Ball era?
YF
I would say 15 position players, 5 starting pitchers 5 relief pitchers. Plus maybe a couple of reserves for each if we decide to enable injuries. I'd say DH for the AL, but if you're against that we could can it altogether. Also I don't need a specific year from a players career but an approximate age when he was at his peak might be helpful.
I've actually been so busy lately I haven't had time to think about the baseball thingy. This weekend I should be able to hit it though.
Starting with the Yankees then.
YF
Let’s see, I’ll throw out a few names here. I believe you said that you just need an approximate age of each player, so that’s what I have….except for a couple of obvious players that I’m sure you already put together. I stuck with older players because you know much more about modern players than I ever will. So, here goes:
(Not in any kind of order, really.)
Jack Chesbro, 30, r-handed pitcher.
Bob Meusel, 25, outfield
Babe Ruth
Earl Combs, 27, outfield
Tony Lazzeri, 26, 2 base
Lou Gehrig
Bill Dickey, 30, Catcher
Lefty Gomez, 26, l-handed
Joe DiMaggio, 25
Phil Rizzuto, 33, ss
Whitey Ford, 32, l-handed
Yogi Berra, 25, c
Mickey Mantle
Of course, you don’t need to use any of these if you think you don’t need them, but that’s what I came up with so far. I’ still looking for a 3 baseman.
YF
For 3b try Greg Nettles or Joe Dugan. Honestly thats the best I can come up with. How odd. I assume catching is safe with Berra and Dickey but if they need a third for some reason theres Thurman Munson. Gehrig at 1st of course and Don Mattingly can back up. Lazzeri should be good at 2nd and then maybe Willie Randolph? Might want to check Bobby Richardson too. SS Derek Jeter probably then we'll have to decie between Phil Rizutto Frankie Crosetti and maybe Bucky Dent? Outfield is pretty stacked, should Reggie Jackson be there or be saved for say Oakland? Also to consider Roger Maris, Dave Winfield (Padres?) Paul O'Neil. Dont forget Joe Dimaggio. And look up Wee Willie Keeler and tell me where YOU think he should go. Stumps me. Pitchers later.
Well, without checking the book I was kind of hoping to slip Greg Nettles into the Twins line-up. I suppose he has to go with New York though. I really can't imagine anyone in the outfield other than Ruth, Mantle, and DiMaggio. Reggie Jackson should really go to Oakland if they want him. I'm going to say that Keeler goes to Baltimore, those were his glory years.
Ok heres my proposed 15 man list of position players-
C- Yogi Berra
1b- Lou Gehrig
2b- Tony Lazzeri
SS- Derek Jeter
3b- Greg Nettles (sigh)
Lf- Mickey Mantle
Cf- Joe Dimaggio
Rf- Babe Ruth
Reserves: C- Bill Dickey
IF- Don Mattingly, Willie Randolph, Phil Rizutto, Frankie Crosetti
OF- Bob Meusel, Roger Maris
Two backup OFs should be plenty. When you have THAT starting outfield I doubt the bench guys are gonna get too many at bats.
Here are some ideas for pitchers. Mel Stottlemyre, Ron Guidry, Goose Gossage and Dave Righetti. I;ve been so busy working on the house I haven't been doing much with this, but it's about time to get serious about it. I guess I'll start on another team....Red Sox maybe. The Yankees were easy. Pretty much all Hall of Famers. Things will start getting a little more interesting now.
I'll get back to you.
YF
Ok, I was making up the guys for the Yankees strting lneup and it's like, Ruth Gehrig Mantle...Nettles??? I just can't do it. If you wanna save him for the Twins thats fine with me. I'd rather put Red Rolfe or Clete Boyer or even Scott Brosius in the spot.
Yankee Rotation?
1Whitey Ford
2Red Ruffing
3Ron Guidry
4Lefty Gomez
5Andy Pettite
(four lefthanders!)
Bullpen
Mariano Rivera, closer
Sparky Lyle
Rich Gossage
Dave Righetti
Johnny Murphy
P reserves: Mel Stottlemyre, Mike Stanton, Bob Shawkey
The reality is that Craig Nettles played for the Twins for about 15 minutes, and I think something like 27 years for the Yankees. The whole project becomes kind of watered down if we bend the rules too much. Besides, we may be able to put Killebrew at third for the Twins.
Otherwise, the Yankees look good.
YF
Ok, are you working on the Red Sox? I'll try and get the final Yankees roster up soon.
Final Yankees roster:
IF- Lou Gehrig, Tony Lazzeri, Derek Jeter, Clete Boyer, Don Mattingly, Phil Rizutto, Bobby Richardson, Greg Nettles
C- Yogi Berra, Bill Dickey
OF- Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, Joe Dimaggio, Bob Meusel, Earl Combs
Player reserves: Thurman Munson, Hal Chase, Frankie Crossetti, Bernie Williams, Roger Maris
Pitchers: Whitey Ford, Red Ruffing, Ron Guidry, Lefty Gomez, Andy Pettite
Bullpen
Mariano Rivera, Sparky Lyle, Rich Gossage, Dave Righetti, Johnny Murphy
P reserves: Mel Stottlemyre, Mike Stanton, Bob Shawkey
Oh man! Have I fallen behind on this. I spend every waking minute working on the house. I did spend a little time on this project, but it turns out the Red Sox are going to be harder than I would have guessed. A couple of good players almost qualified for the team, but really belonged somewhere else. Tris Speaker comes to mind....also Joe Cronin, who actually belongs to Washington...who later became Minnesota. Unless I just don't understand the big picture.
Anyway, here are a few that I was able to come up with so far:
There are a cople of obvious ones of course.
Williams and Yastrzemski are no-brainers. Jimmy Collins at third I suppose. The problem with that is that it pushes Wade Boggs into a pinch-hitting spot. Actually, I think it would be the other way around. Billy Goodman could be considered for second, and Johnny Pesky at short. I haven't looked at pitchers yet, but Martinez and Clemens are not too bad for starters.
For all I know you've already finished this team and a cuple of others, but this is my input. I have a couple of days off for Easter so I'll try to get back to it. I better post this now before it gets dumped.
YF
No, I just finished creating the Yankees. I've only just started looking at the Sox.
It does look like they should have a pretty awesome lineup.
Ok, here's a quandry- Cy Young. His best years came with Cleveland, but that was the National League Spiders team, who have nothing to do with the Indians franchise. He pitched several good years for Boston BUT he spent the last two years of his career with AL Cleveland. So do we stick him with the Sox, or let him go to the Indians in honor of his cleveland heritage? Problems, problems.
A few more BoSox pitchers-
Roger Clemens
Smokey Joe Wood
Mel Parnell
Luis Tiant
Pedro Martinez (I assume he'd go here)
And so long as you don't mind, I'd like to shoehorn Tim Wakefield into the bullpen somewhere.
Let's try to wrap this team up. Cy Young seems a little Clevelandy to me, I guess. Boston doesn't really need him anyway. It seems like you about have the pitching rotation laid out.
I'm suggesting Pete Runnels for first base. Reggie Smith and Jim Rice for the outfield and pinch hitting. That should pretty much fill their roster. If they still need a catcher, I suppose Carlton Fisk is a likely possibility.
What team will be next?
YF
Ok lets take a stab at this.
Starters-
C- Carlton Fisk
1B- Mo Vaughn
2b- Bobby Doerr
SS- Johnny Pesky (A 3b mainly, but when Wade Boggs is on the team, you play where you can
3B- Boggs....
Ok, here's where things get dicey. I need you to make the call on Tris Speaker. Assuming he DOESN'T go here, I'd go with...
LF- Manny Ramirez
CF- Carl Yazstremski
RF- Ted Williams
As much as I love Manny he'd have to get bumped if Speaker goes to boston. I mean, it's him or the greatest hitter of all time or the most popular Red Sox player of all time. Too bad.
Backups- C- Jason Varitek
IF- Pete Runnels, Nomar Garciapara, Jimmy Collins
OF- (Cripes, I can't believe how stacked the BoSox outfield is...and one of these guys could get bumped for speaker still...)
Jim Rice, Dom Dimaggio...and....I'd say pass over Hooper, Evans and Lynn and go with David Ortiz as a PH/DH.
You know, there's no reason to put Speaker here. The more I look at his bio, the more I say send him to Clevland, the can use him more I'm sure.
SP-
1. Roger Clemens
2. Pedro Martinez
3. Joe Wood
4. Luis Tiant
5. Mel Parnell
RP-
Closer- Dick Radatz
Bob Stanley, Ellis Kinder, Tim Wakefield, Greg Harris
Injury Reserves- Sammy White (C) Jerry Remy,(IF) Harry Hooper (OF)
P's Joe Dobson, Derek Lowe.
Whew. Ok? If this looks good....I'd say lets do the Twins next.
P.S. Reggie Smith? Seriously, what the hell
Smith? It's easy to spell.
I never really considered Speaker for Boston. They already have Williams for Pete's sake.
Now that I think about it, Reggie Smith could make it on a lot of teams....so back off.
Twins? Great. I'll get back to you.
YF
Well, let’s see….I’ve been researching for a little while now, but before I fall asleep I better get this in print.
Minnesota/Washington:
1B – Rod Carew Carew was obvious, but figuring out where to put him was the tricky part.
2B – Bucky Harris or Buddy Myer Either way, but the one left over would most likely be on the bench, I guess
3B – Harmon Killebrew Again, where to put him was the only question
SS – Joe Cronin This choice was made easier by the fact that neither team ever seems to have employed another short stop to speak of.
C – Earl Batty Partly for nostalgic reasons, but nobody else seems too anxious to take the position away from him.
LF – Goose Goslin
CF – Kirby Pucket
RF – Tony Oliva
I’m thinking this team actually has a strong outfield that could match up pretty well with almost anyone.
Sam Rice and Clyde Milan seem to be two good possibilities for back-up outfielders, and maybe Hrbeck or Knoblauch in the infield.
Pitching may be a problem. Other than Walter Johnson, we seem to have a lot of average pitchers to work with. Jim Kaat and Bert Blyleven may work out. Blyleven started and ended with Minnesota so don’t give me any crap about him.
That’s about it so far. I really haven’t looked at the pitchers much yet.
YF
Oh yeah, like I would want Blyleven anywhere else. The pitching staff could be a little tight. Johnson is seriously the only senators pitcher of note...ever. Frankie Viola maybe. I wonder if Johann Santana should be eligible.
It seems like the Twins have room for Camilo Pascual in their pitching rotation. Dean Chance is another possibility. He could just as easily go to the Dodgers, but I remember both of these guys pitching for the Twins in my youth, so I'd give them the nod. Hey, check out Lyman Bostock for the outfield. He was a young sensation in Minnesota before he went to California and got his head blown off by a jealous husband.
More later.
YF
Is that the guy who got killed? I couldn't remember his name. Ok, how about this pitching staff:
SP
1. Walter Johnson. Duh.
2. Bert Blyleven
3. Jim Kaat
4. Johann Santana
5. Camilio Pascaul or Frank Viola
RP
Closer: Rick Aguilera (I'd say Joe Nathan but this is just his 3d season with the team)
Firpo Marberry
Eddie Guardado
Juan Berenguer
Al Worthington
I suppose Viola edges out Pascual. Anyway you look at it, it's not really a pitching staff that's going to strike fear into any other team. They'll just have to depend on their hitting.
So, who's next then?
I guess if you want to get started on the Tigers I'll try and get the position players up for your approval this weekend.
OK, the Tigers...
A good number of Hall of Famers, but not really too much power. And, for a team that's been around as long as they have, not really a great pitching staff.
Outfield:
Ty Cobb, no-brainer
Harry Heilmann, no problem
Al Kaline, partly for nostalgic reasons, but mostly because he's about the only power hitter on the team
Catcher:
Johnny Bassler, name another one
1Base:
Hank Greenberg, of course
2Base:
Charlie Gehringer, like I said, they're kind of heavy on the big names
SS:
Alan Trammell, just to keep you young kids happy
3Base:
George Kell
Not too many teams would have Sam Crawford on the bench, but that's the way I see it. He could sit there with Gee Walker and Bob Fothergill, I guess, and maybe Ray Boone just to get an in-fielder in there.
Um, piching later.
I'm not sure where Harold Dieterle will fit in. Harold Dieterle can do just about anything. Harold Dieterle is my new hero. Each team should have Harold Dieterle on their roster.
YF
"Catcher:
Johnny Bassler, name another one"
Look up Bill Freehan. I'd say 11 All Star selections mean something.
Plus, Lance Parrish. Six All Star games as a Tiger, two more elsewhere. Really I see Bassler at AAA.
OF, Cobb of course. Heilmann? You hit .342 for your career, you make the team says I. But I might consider swapping Crawford for Kaline. Crawford is the all time leader in Triples and something like thats gotta count for something.
Gerhinger and Greenberg are easy. Norm Cash could back up at 1st.
I should really be sleeping now, I have to be up in like 4 hours.
Lets take a look at the Tigers pitching staff.
1. Mickey Lolich
2. Jack Morris
3. hal Newhouser- I've never really liked Newhouser. He was a mediocre pitcher for several years then reeled off three awesome seasons...while all the real players were off fighting WWII. And that's what his reputation is built on. But the numbers are there and I'm gonna include him.
4. Tommy Bridges
5. Denny McLain- Yeah he was a moron who shot his career to hell but he was really good for three seasons.
Bullpen
John Hiller
Willie Hernandez
Mike Henneman
Long Reliever/Spot Starter- Dizzy Trout. The man's name is Dizzy Trout! How can you not include him? Unless maybe Sickly Salmon takes his spot.
Closer- Todd Jones
I'm deeply concerned that you want to disrespect Al Kaline. Also, there's got to be room on the pitching staff for Wild Bill Donovan. He had some pretty good numbers, and an even better nickname.
YF
He's the alltime leader in triples man have a heart. What else will he be remembered for if not inclusion on this team??
Ok, we'll see bout Wild Bill, just for that guy who carried your groceries to the car at the commisary that one time.
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